Oct. 21 marked the 10th anniversary of the passing of 1972 losing Democratic Party Presidential candidate South Dakota Senator George McGovern. He was ahead of his time in his race against Republican President Richard Nixon. McGovern’s platform included ending the Vietnam War. It also called for spending the billions wasted on the war to rebuild America, along with saving lives by bringing the troops home. McGovern was too proud to emphasize his military experience as a decorated World War II bomber pilot. Nixon attempted to portray him as soft on national defense.

Since 2001, we have spent almost $7 trillion between our involvement in various international nation building adventures in Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria and Pakistan wars. There was also the loss of 7,000 American military along with additional private military contractors employed to assist in the fighting. Thousands more suffer day to day with permanent physical injuries.

(21) comments

SoDakD

Nothing, Mr. Penner. I agree.

Mr. McGovern, having fought in a war that - win or lose - had real consequences for Americans for generations to come, saw the Vietnam War for what it was.

It was a pointless, foolish war of choice. And now, years later, Americans can acknowledge that. So can most members of our military establishment.

Sadly, those who advocated our nation building adventures in Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria and the Pakistani wars were like little “Shepherd boys crying Wolf.”

But now that we have a war with very real consequences that Americans will live with for generations, a significant number of Americans understandably don’t take it seriously.

But this time is different. And I’m not just talking about the Ukrainian war. The Chinese are watching us very closely with one eye on Ukraine and the other on Taiwan.

For those who haven’t studied Putin’s war of conquest between Russia and Ukraine OR the prospect of Xi Jinping’s war of conquest between China and Taiwan, I suggest beginning by considering the two most important DIFFERENCES between these wars and those Mr. Penner has listed.

And they’re important differences indeed.

Neither Ukraine nor Taiwan require American boots on the ground to build a nation that is already well built.

They will require American Treasure, but not American blood. Considering the stakes it’s a bargain.

Especially if a successful Ukrainian example makes it two for the price of one.

Larry Skow

War in Ukraine was very likely allowed to start simply as U.N now puts it Ukraine war will speed the transition to Green Energy. Putin is someone who everyone loves to hate. His ego inflates when he the perceived to be the "Bad Boy" of the world hood. So, there you have the arranged distraction on world stage. Think of all the roads/bridges/sewer systems/electrical grid/water systems we could of rebuilt here in USA with the money wasted fighting for "democracy". $82 billion in withdrawal in Afghanistan plus 13 young lives' lost on top of the waste. Now bouncing on $80 billion in Ukraine! Don't forget how long Joe/Pelosi/Clinton's/Shumer/McConnell/Chaney/Bush's and other worthless politicians have over seen this disaster. Isn't enough enough with these inept pocket lining clowns? Stay tuned be more war's coming. Africa on the Horizon--How about Tiawan. It is coming folks.

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BigSky57062

So Larry, you probably would have counseled us to stay out of WWII. Right?

Mr. T

I’m glad someone else is discussing the importance of the Ukrainian war.

I’ve made the case before that the war in Ukraine is critical for the possibility that our grandkids may live in a rules-based global society.

But many people don’t see how important this war in Ukraine is to our growing conflict with China.

And the focal point of this conflict is Taiwan.

China faces some serious problems in their clearly declared plans to conquer Taiwan. Unlike Ukraine, Taiwan has had decades to prepare its Military, its infrastructure and its people for the long expected invasion from the Chinese.

The status of the Taiwanese preparations and China’s rapid buildup of its military machine to overcome them, are clearly laid out in Ian Easton’s excellent book, “The Chinese Invasion Threat: Taiwan's Defense and American Strategy in Asia,” which was written in 2017 before the Ukrainian war. But its lessons are still extremely relevant.

Mr. Easton makes the case that with American help in building up a 21st high tech Military, Taiwan’s prospect for thwarting an invasion by China could be very good.

BUT a war of conquest with Taiwan will likely force the Chinese to follow Russia's example by pulverizing the Taiwanese with a widespread, saturation artillery assault before daring to match the highly motivated Taiwanese people soldier to soldier and citizen to soldier. Like the Ukrainians.

But if the Russians are successful in using this strategy to demoralize the Ukrainian people and drive away their Western supporters, it takes no stretch of the imagination that this will become China’s strategy too.

So goes Ukraine, so goes Taiwan.

And yes, it means we’ll likely face economic challenges for some time. It won't be as extreme as World War II. And it won't mean hundreds of thousands of dead and wounded Americans.

Yet the stakes may be as high as they were in that transitional conflict.

Jolly Roger

I think Larry, Voice and Abe tell us very clearly that if the Trumpsters win the house you can kiss their support for Ukraine goodbye.

Larry Skow

Big Sky. Who are you going to send to fight? Abortion has taken the generation of young that would have been military age now. A woke military can't defend its self. There is no labor force for factories to build military gear. If Tiwan explodes who will make the clothes for military? Right now, they are made in China. Takes CHIPS for military hardware. OOPs look where CHIPS are made or at least majority of Polysilicon. Can't make chips without that. As far as WW2 goes. Don't forget Roosevelt thought very highly of Hitler/ Mussolini's ways before it went south. As did many in England's leadership. We may as well of let Europe speak German. He would have brought them under one rule no borders on money system. Isn't that what they pushed for now under the EURO?

BigSky57062

OK. So you wouldn’t have fought World War II.

And you haven’t really read Mr. T‘s posting have you?

No American needs to nation build or fight for Ukraine or Taiwan. They’re doing fine on that regard.

But you don’t seem to understand that we haven’t been able to isolate ourselves from the world at least since WWI, when the first iteration of FIRST bit the dust after Pearl Harbor.

Your sense of world history seems to end somewhere in the 1800’s.

Gimmy A. Breake

🔴Another post without reflection

words and sense have no connection.

No harm done, I must suppose.

But what this means, no one knows.

No thesis in this jumbled mess.

The point is left for us to guess

Yet much preferred is cryptic blabber.

Instead of hate, just jibber jabber.🔴

Mr. T

Voice, I don’t know if this responds to your point about CHIPS or not. I’m not sure I quite understand what you intended to say.

However, the free world's chip production is done by 6 countries that comprise almost the entire manufacturing supply chain of advanced chips.

These free world countries are Germany, Japan, the Netherlands, South Korea, Taiwan, and the United States.

The design and production of computer chips is so complex that no single one of these countries dominates the entire scope of production.

Even South Korea, which manufactures the most chips, still has to import 90% of its manufacturing equipment.

The point here is that the United States new policy under the Biden Administration on denying ships to China will have real teeth if we can continue to build a coalition of our allies, since everything - and criticality to the point - advanced war machines depend on chips.

This is another reason why I strongly disagree with your assertion that we can just go it alone with an early 20th century American isolationist policy.

“America first“ is “America alone.” And that doesn’t work anymore - if it ever did.

Larry Skow

Keep drinking that kool aid kids. And with the Pot supply interrupted with Gayville dealer going down will you all run around to next dealers up trying to find cheapest high. Or will chicken little take over with sky is falling Big Sky. All wars are preventable. If powers to be wish it. But fallow the money. There vast sums of money made in death/misery/despair. The monetary bankers in charge don't want peace and happiness.

Larry Skow

Big Sky. Don't forget that WW2 was simply the Great Reset of its time. It was downfall of England from World Power to also ran. Shift of world power was moved to USA/Russia--England was given a seat out of show. But they were done as monetary base upon what traded. It went to the dollar. We are seeing another shift under way right now. Whether it be China or WEF model. You see Russia/Iran/Saudi's/China teaming up. Can they make the world shift to Petro Dollars? Or will they shift to another valuable mineral away from Gold/Silver? it is being played out before your eyes Big Sky so stay tuned.

SoDakD

Unless we decide to withdraw from the world as you seem to be suggesting, it’s highly unlikely that the world would change to whatever “petrol dollars” would be.

You should know how volatile oil prices are, and what the global banking community wants is STABILITY. And so far that can’t be provided with anything so stable as the dollar.

(Of course Republicans defaulting on our debt would change that. Remember the last time they seriously threatened it, we got downgraded by Moody‘s)

Mr. T

Mr. Skow as someone who knows something about world history you apparently still don’t acknowledge the importance of the Ukrainian war.

I’ve made the case before that the war in Ukraine is critical for the possibility that our grandkids may live in a rules-based global society.

But many people don’t see how important this war in Ukraine is to our growing conflict with China.

And the focal point of this conflict is Taiwan.

China faces some serious problems in their clearly declared plans to conquer Taiwan. Unlike Ukraine, Taiwan has had decades to prepare its Military, its infrastructure and its people for the long expected invasion from the Chinese.

The status of the Taiwanese preparations and China’s rapid buildup of its military machine to overcome them, are clearly laid out in Ian Easton’s excellent book, “The Chinese Invasion Threat: Taiwan's Defense and American Strategy in Asia,” which was written in 2017 before the Ukrainian war. But its lessons are still extremely relevant.

Mr. Easton makes the case that with American help in building up a 21st high tech Military, Taiwan’s prospect for thwarting an invasion by China could be very good.

BUT a war of conquest with Taiwan will likely force the Chinese to follow Russia's example by pulverizing the Taiwanese with a widespread, saturation artillery assault before daring to match the highly motivated Taiwanese people soldier to soldier and citizen to soldier. Like the Ukrainians.

But if the Russians are successful in using this strategy to demoralize the Ukrainian people and drive away their Western supporters, it takes no stretch of the imagination that this will become China’s strategy too.

So goes Ukraine, so goes Taiwan.

And yes, it means we’ll likely face economic challenges for some time. It won't be as extreme as World War II. And it won't mean hundreds of thousands of dead and wounded Americans.

Yet the stakes may be as high as they were in that transitional conflict.

SoDakD

Mr. T you may be as puzzled as I am why Trump followers are so skittish (cowardly?) when it comes to the Russians and the Chinese.

But along with me, you must’ve been enhearted to see Nancy Pelosi boldly go to Taiwan and thumb her nose at the Chinese while Biden follows the Trump policy of ramping up weapons sales to Taiwan.

(That’s one Trump policy I support. Wonder why Trumpsters don’t?? Maybe Larry and Voice can enlighten us.)

According to THE ARMS ASSOCIATION,“The Biden administration appears to be following what some are calling the “porcupine” strategy, whereby Taiwan is so well provisioned with weapons that any attempt by China to invade and occupy the country would prove extremely difficult and costly.”

And of course the Taiwanese have been expecting an invasion from the Chinese since 1949, so they’ve had a long time to prepare a dazzling system of defenses.

Larry Skow

Wellboys Biden is stroking the tension more. He has placed B-52's nuclear capable into Northern Australia! This is unheard of act. What or why is the fool doing that?

Mr. T

Mr. Skow, strangely enough, Republicans are inordinately fearful of the Chinese. You seem emblematic of this timidity. I’m not sure I understand this entirely…

However, be that as it may, according to author, Ian Easton in his well-received “The Chinese Invasion Threat - Taiwan’s Defense and American Strategy in Asia,” one likely scenario in the Chinese plans for an assault on Taiwan calls for a preemptive strike on American forces in the Pacific Theater.

Extra forces in Australia makes that scenario more problematic and uncertain of success.

Australian foreign policy tried appeasing the Chinese and found that to be unproductive, which is why they are now welcoming us.

SoDakD

I’m old enough to remember when no self-respecting Republican would be quaking in their boots for fear of the Russians or the Chinese.

What’s changed? Larry? Voice?

Larry Skow

Well Sodak D. I am not a Republican. It not Putin I fear. It is the A@@hole President we have now that is pushing the nuc agenda. He has also moved Nuc's to Poland and now moving Nuc capable B-52 to Tinsdale in north Australia. Question is why?

SoDakD

Mr. T. already told you.

SoDakD

So you’re afraid of Putin and Xi’s nukes. What’s the difference?

They’re counting on you to lose in this game of chicken. Apparently they’ve succeeded

SoDakD

Buck up, mr tough guy.

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